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Liam
Joined: 30 Dec 2007
Posts: 424
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 Posted: Thu Jan 01, 2009 10:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Gary Dickson wrote: | | Liam wrote: | there is always an ad in the last post, dont know why
and saying that being offended is always the persons fault is true in a way, but not one that really makes sence
if you have offensive material in your act thats partially your fault.
Really, all material is probably offensive in some way so you cant take out all of the possible offenses. But if you do something claiming to be bigger then jesus or just blatantly mock a religion then you are asking for it. |
If it is true, then why doesn't it make sense? What one person considers offensive, another considers funny. In reality there is no such thing as offensive material. Being offended is not something that happens to us but something we do with our minds. We decide whether we will find something offensive.
History is littered with people who were 'offensive': Caravaggio, Galileo, Oscar Wilde, Lenny Bruce, Mozart, The Sex Pistols. I'm sure there are many others.
In this day and age we live in fear, perpetuated largely by the media. We can't offend people in case they get angry, in case they blow us up! This is a ludicrous state of affairs. What is wrong in mocking a religion? Nothing. And what, exactly, am I asking for if I mock a religion? There are certain aspects of all religions that need mocking, including my own (I'm a Buddhist, in case you were interested).
If we want to bring this into an ethical dimension then the question we must ask ourselves is not 'will someone find this offensive?', because you can be sure that someone, somewhere will find what ever it is offensive. The question we must ask ourselves is this: what are my motivations behind this action? What are my intentions in saying this? We have no control over how people will respond to us. Some people find the act of performing magic offensive. Are we to stop performing in order to appease them? The only thing we have control over are our own minds, and even then most of the time we don't have control over that! My base for including material in my act is not whether people will approve of it (although I hope they do!) but my motivations for including it. As my intentions are not to induce negative states in other people, as my intentions are not to 'offend' I have no problem in including whatever I see fit.
I will not be told, by anyone, what I can and can't say. People don't have to like what I do, and if what I do angers them then the problem is entirely theirs. It's their mind, after all. I cannot, and will not, take responsibility for another person's narrow mindedness.
You may not agree, which is fine. It's your prerogative after all. But consider this: are you actually doing anyone any favours by pandering to their own reactivity? I don't think so.
love
Gary
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my point was supposed to be that everything is offensive to someone so unless there is a reason for doing something, dont do it. Dont say christians are misenterpreting the bible just to piss off christians. Say it with a reason.
Being offended is natural and without it we would all just be doormats. But some people are offended for no reason
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Gary Dickson
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| Posted: Thu Jan 01, 2009 10:58 pm Post subject: |
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| How old are you, Liam? |
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Liam
Joined: 30 Dec 2007
Posts: 424
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| Posted: Thu Jan 01, 2009 11:00 pm Post subject: |
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what a relevant question!
do you have any pets at home?
and i agree we shouldnt change our routines
i just dont think we shouldnt care about offending people.
Magicians are entertainers... we should care about peoples feelings, even if they are irrational.
And I agree everything will insult someone, but somethings should insult everyone and personally i avoid those things
Speaking of avoiding, lets avoid this turning into an arguement  |
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Michael Kras
Site Admin
Joined: 07 Aug 2007
Posts: 1310
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Thu Jan 01, 2009 11:46 pm Post subject: |
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A large part of performing magic is taking risks.... pulling off risky sleights, using risky presentations, performing new untested effects in public for the first time... I don't see why this sort of idea is exempt. If some people do not like it or find it offensive, they have to get over themselves and loosen up. To me, being offended is the "offended" person's whole fault. Why MUST there be such a feeling? I for one am not offended by ANYTHING. I'm sensitive toward certain issues, sure, but I'm not at all full-out offended by anything. I like being that way. To me, being offended is just whining and crying, attracting attention, or letting a small feeling of dislike evolve into a huge issue that could potentially mean big trouble for "the offender". If offensive issues were not tolerable, they wouldn't exist.
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BrianMillerMagic
Joined: 14 Aug 2007
Posts: 543
Location: New York State
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| Posted: Thu Jan 01, 2009 11:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Liam wrote: |
Magicians are entertainers... we should care about peoples feelings, even if they are irrational. |
Once again you're missing the point that both "offensiveness" and "entertainment" are subjective terms - they only gain meaning with perception. People need to loosen up; if they're going to see an entertainer, they must accept the fact that something they believe in or enjoy might be made fun of.
If you are an entertainer who prefers to have his material really say something to the audience, then you cannot worry about people's feelings because you'd have no material to perform. There are certain things in this world that I personally believe people take entirely too seriously for their own good, and those things I make fun of quite a bit - religion is one of them. I'm not alone - probably 99% of working stand up comics take on religion and a number of these other huge issues, and somehow they're doing just fine for themselves.
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Last edited by BrianMillerMagic on Fri Jan 02, 2009 6:03 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Liam
Joined: 30 Dec 2007
Posts: 424
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| Posted: Fri Jan 02, 2009 2:57 am Post subject: |
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im not saying you have to avoid offensive things.
but personally, i wouldnt do an oil and water trick with patter about white supremacy.
I agree that people are offended to easily, but i dont see that as any sort of justification for being offesive |
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Gary Dickson
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| Posted: Fri Jan 02, 2009 9:59 am Post subject: |
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| Liam wrote: | what a relevant question!
do you have any pets at home? |
You are correct, it is an entirely relevant question. In my experience communicating online with young people is a frustrating and pointless excercise. I ask your age because if you turn out to be 15 or 16 I'm not interested in continuing this discussion with you. I'm 36 years old and have two cats. If this offends you, well...
The reason I ask your age, and I note you did not answer, is because you appear to be contradicting yourself. In the same post. Not only that, but you actually appear to be agreeing with what I am saying. To me this indicates you have not actually thought about the issues at hand and are saying what you think is the right thing. For example:
| Quote: | | my point was supposed to be that everything is offensive to someone so unless there is a reason for doing something, dont do it. Dont say christians are misenterpreting the bible just to piss off christians. Say it with a reason. |
Ring any bells? Let me remind you.
| Quote: | | If we want to bring this into an ethical dimension then the question we must ask ourselves is not 'will someone find this offensive?', because you can be sure that someone, somewhere will find what ever it is offensive. The question we must ask ourselves is this: what are my motivations behind this action? What are my intentions in saying this? |
Are you not agreeing with me here? Are we not, in fact, saying the same thing?
There is a vast difference in acting in a way that offends people and intentionally doing so. Yes, if your aim is to piss off christians, as you so eloquently put it, then your motives are unethical. But if your motive is to entertain, and in the process christians get offended then you have nothing to worry about.
One more thing: I thought we were having a discussion, not an argument.
Oh, and Brian, I think you meant subjective! |
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BrianMillerMagic
Joined: 14 Aug 2007
Posts: 543
Location: New York State
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Gary Dickson
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| Posted: Fri Jan 02, 2009 7:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Well, I know how it can be in the heat of the moment! |
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Liam
Joined: 30 Dec 2007
Posts: 424
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| Posted: Fri Jan 02, 2009 10:34 pm Post subject: |
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the only point i really disagree about is this
| Gary Dickson wrote: |
This whole idea of not offending people is a little bit wet, in my opinion. If somebody gets offended the problem is entirely theirs |
The problem is not always entirely theirs. Had you not said anything, their would be no problem there for you have done something to insult them. Sure, some people will be insulted by anything, but if your whole audience is offended and you dont care you are just being ignorant.
"Why dont people like your magic show?"
"I dont know, i'm doing nothing wrong.... its entirely their fault"
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