Michael Kras
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Taking Heat OffI have a bit of a problem... it's actually the main reason I almost never perform coin magic. Why is it that whenever I execute some sort of fake take or false transfer, the spectators tend to follow the "dirty hand" the entire time? I am very confident in my false transfer and am very sure that it looks natural and, more importantly, my dirty hand looks natural after the move.
Despite how natural I try to make things look, spectators often seem to follow the dirty hand. I never leave it up at chest level as that leaves everything out in the open for suspicion, I just casually drop my arm to my side as is standard, but even still, it doesn't fly.
Any suggestions or help? Thank you very much!
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BrianMillerMagic
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It's less about natural and more about being comfortable misdirecting with your entire body. You're quite adept at card magic Michael, so you're most used to misdirecting only with your hands. Coin magic involves the entire body as a unit instead of just your hands/arms. You have to sell false transfers with everything, not just your hands. Hard to teach it; it's more of a feel thing.
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Michael Kras
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Thank you very much for your help. That does make a lot of sense, and I will work on it.
Anyone else have any experiences like this? What do you do when someone says "it's in your other hand!"? Because really, after that happens then ALL of the heat is on that hands... no chance of effectively ditching.
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teddy
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| Michael Kras wrote: | Thank you very much for your help. That does make a lot of sense, and I will work on it.
Anyone else have any experiences like this? What do you do when someone says "it's in your other hand!"? Because really, after that happens then ALL of the heat is on that hands... no chance of effectively ditching. |
I guess I just perform for dumb people, because I'm sure your false transfers are at least as good as mine, and I did one five times in a row with nobody catching on.
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Michael Kras
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Perhaps it's just my mannerisms and a past of being caught that has caused my body language to project a message of where the coin actually is.
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Ben Train
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Three things come to mind.
First, your moves aren't as good as you think they are. I suggest this because if they KEEP looking something must be tipping them off.
Second, the coin magic your doing is poorly structured, even if you are doing it well. One of the biggest issues with coin magic is that the obvious method for an effect, the one a layperson would jump too, is USUALLY WHAT IS HAPPENING! This is bad magic. If you make a coin disappear then the obvious answer is that the coin was never there to begin with (many people have been exposed to this concept). If this is what you are doing, you're in trouble. My suggestion? Check out David Roth's work- no one structures coin magic better (I haven't seen Brian's work, but I'm sure it's good too).
Third, as suggested, it's the body language. What I disagree with is the suggestion that card magic doesn't use full body movements- at its highest form it does (though we rarely see anyone, myself included) working at that level. When one false deals his hands, arms, elbows, back, neck, and head all move in a specific way designed to get a better illusion. Coin magic works the same way (with a greater dependency though...)
Magically yours,
Ben
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BrianMillerMagic
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Excellent advice Ben - definitely check out Roth and look at structure. And yes, of course card magic can use to entire body to its full advantage, but it's not nearly as crucial to being able to perform with cards as it is to coins.
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Michael Kras
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Thank you very much Ben... ideas are already running through my head on how to improve my coin work.
Now, a question... what do you all do when someone shouts out that the object is "in the other hand", and you're left with no chance of effectively ditching the object to prove them wrong?
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Michael Kras
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A nidea I have thought about that may most likely take all heat off the dirty hand... please let me know if you find this to be an effectice and logical premise.
(Coin held at right fingertips) As a magician still developing his magical abilities (false transfer to left hand fingertips), I find that the magic tends to happen mainly in this hand (emphasize with gentle push forward of left hand). In fact, it's already begun! (Rub fingers together, wave hand gently, show coin has vanished.... all of the above past the false transfer is when the ditch occurs.)
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BrianMillerMagic
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If you purposely draw attention to one hand, you're definitely leading them to suspicion of the other hand.
As for when someone says, "It's in the other hand!", simply show them that it isn't. If your coin magic is logically structured and well executed, there should never be a question of 'which hand is it in?'
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Liam
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i think its all about subtelties.
like my friend learned the french drop, but he couldnt palm
so he made it fall into a place so he could snap the hand with the coin in it.
it was so simple, but a nice convincing moment that it wasnt in the hand
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Ben Train
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| Michael Kras wrote: | Thank you very much Ben... ideas are already running through my head on how to improve my coin work.
Now, a question... what do you all do when someone shouts out that the object is "in the other hand", and you're left with no chance of effectively ditching the object to prove them wrong? |
This a very difficult question.
One of the activities I do with friends is try to stump each other with hard to deal with situations. One of them recently was similar to this.
You turn over a double and before you can turn it over someone says "can I see the card under that one" with a smirk.
What do you do?
Forget the comment- you need to improve your double. It's too late for that. So, what do you do?
The reason I bring this up is that there is a similar response to both that I have found. But, what can you guys come up with?
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Michael Kras
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When I get a call like that I pick up the double and slip the lower card off with my left fingertips back onto the deck as I hand the card to them or simply freely display it.
And for proving the emptiness of a dirty hand during a coin vanish... less observant spectators may fall for L'Homme Masque or perhaps sleeving. Greg Wilson's pitch and ditch move is also an option, as is sleeving if the opportunity is available.
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Ben Train
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You're missing a key concept- the grin.
The individual KNOWS it's a double. If you pick it up your in an even WORSE position.
So, if you did that and I said- let me see the card, what do you do?
And, lets assume the spectators ARE observant, otherwise there's no point to this discussion.
Ben
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Liam
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the only way i can imagine is
"aha! we have a smart one in the croud! well then explain to me how i do this, this even confuses me!"
if you're caught, you're caught.
in my opinion, ditching a double is rarely effective. Not only does it mess up your routine, but people might catch on.
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Michael Kras
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Tilt the deck slightly backward to the top is obscured as you remove the single top card and hand it over.
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teddy
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| Liam wrote: | the only way i can imagine is
"aha! we have a smart one in the croud! well then explain to me how i do this, this even confuses me!" |
But then that challenges the spectator to figure out your next trick, thereby making them a heckler.
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Liam
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ya, but somethings like dr strangetrick or a sucker is born every minutes.
they wont figure it out, and you can have some fun wit it
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Ben Train
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| Michael Kras wrote: | | Tilt the deck slightly backward to the top is obscured as you remove the single top card and hand it over. |
Fine, he shouts, and grabs for the top of the deck.
Your missing the concept mike- he KNOWS you have a double- and he knows that if you lift off one there's some sort of evidence on the deck.
Liam,
The problem here is you lose control, and worse, you know challenge someone who is already aggressive to be more so. Unless you are very VERY good (Which, no offense, but I doubt a fifteen year old can be) this seems like a bad approach. Unless I misunderstood something.
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Liam
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| Ben Train wrote: |
Liam,
The problem here is you lose control, and worse, you know challenge someone who is already aggressive to be more so. Unless you are very VERY good (Which, no offense, but I doubt a fifteen year old can be) this seems like a bad approach. Unless I misunderstood something. |
well its really the way you phrase it
it kinda comes off more as a
"i guess i failed, let me try again"
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Ben Train
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| Liam wrote: | | Ben Train wrote: |
Liam,
The problem here is you lose control, and worse, you know challenge someone who is already aggressive to be more so. Unless you are very VERY good (Which, no offense, but I doubt a fifteen year old can be) this seems like a bad approach. Unless I misunderstood something. |
well its really the way you phrase it
it kinda comes off more as a
"i guess i failed, let me try again" |
No matter how we phrase:
"aha! we have a smart one in the crowd! well then explain to me how i do this, this even confuses me!"
it's still a challenge. We might be aggressive about it, or friendly, but the nature of the approach is that it's a challenge.
Now, even if it WASN'T a challenge, I don't think you should EVER say you failed. This comes with time and experience, but you will, if you continue to work at it, NEVER be in a position where there's no way out- even if you figure out a solution after the fact.
My suggestion? Get Charles Hopkins' book.
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Michael Kras
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Openly reveal the double, act confused, and say "Darn cards are sticking together today." or something along the lines of that. Then proceed to use a different mathod than a double or perhaps a more natural one than before.
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teddy
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| Michael Kras wrote: | | Openly reveal the double, act confused, and say "Darn cards are sticking together today." or something along the lines of that. Then proceed to use a different mathod than a double or perhaps a more natural one than before. |
I've done that before.
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Ben Train
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This is a contradiction- which is always bad.
We cannot, or should not, admit failure (if you disagree with this contention then the aforementioned solutions might work for you, but I'm curious how you could justify this stance), but your solution (Expose double) is to do so.
Any more ideas?
I'm a spectator who knows what a double is. You are performing for my group and turn over one- and I shout let me see the card underneath the top one. I KNOW the condition of the cards, and I understand, on some level, what's happening.
WHAT DO YOU DO?
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Michael Kras
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Lift the top card, and say "You've got a sharp eye... since you seem to know exactly how many cards I turn over at a time, let's put that to the test".
At which point I go into some sort of Inversion effect or David Acer's effect (the name escapes me).
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Liam
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in reality, i would probably just keep going for the other spectators.
my double lift isnt so good i make an intire routine revolve around it.
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Ben Train
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Again, challenging (though I love David's effect- but I don't challange people with it...) and admiting defeat.
And, now another bad one- exposure.
What to do!
Liam,
I'm guessing you don't work professionaly as a magician (which is cool bro) but either you leave the group admiting defeat or you ignore someone while you perform for the rest (Which isn''t actually a bad answer, but you need more then that...)
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Michael Kras
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Wow, you're like the Stanley Kubrick of magic!!!!
Another shot at this quizzical question... When they ask to see underneath the card, lift up the top two as one, flash the normal face down deck, and state "I have no idea why you are asking me to do this but whatever makes you comfortable."
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Ben Train
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Mike,
Your not thinking about the problem, so you can't possibly hope to address it.
Imagine if you were watching me perform, and I turned over a double. You, for whatever reason, wanted to be a dick. So you called me on it.
What could I do to deal with this situation?
Or, if it makes it easier to understand, lets say you turn over a double and I call you on it. What can you do?
Picking up the double doesn't help, 'cause now I know you're holding a double and I'll ask to see it. Then what? Picking off a single and necktying the deck doesn't help, because I'll ask to see the deck.
WHAT DO YOU DO?
I'm not sure I'll post more on this topic, because it doesn't seem to be going anywhere. But think about it. You can only get better by doing so.
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Michael Kras
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Ignore it and continue on with the effect.
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Liam
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| Ben Train wrote: | Mike,
Your not thinking about the problem, so you can't possibly hope to address it.
Imagine if you were watching me perform, and I turned over a double. You, for whatever reason, wanted to be a dick. So you called me on it.
What could I do to deal with this situation?
Or, if it makes it easier to understand, lets say you turn over a double and I call you on it. What can you do?
Picking up the double doesn't help, 'cause now I know you're holding a double and I'll ask to see it. Then what? Picking off a single and necktying the deck doesn't help, because I'll ask to see the deck.
WHAT DO YOU DO?
I'm not sure I'll post more on this topic, because it doesn't seem to be going anywhere. But think about it. You can only get better by doing so. |
what would YOU do?
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Michael Kras
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He's not going to answer that, trust me  he doesn't just give out answers for free, you have to work qwuite hard for them.
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Liam
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i know, but i thought it was worth a try
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teddy
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Maybe wink at te spectator?
They might catch your drift and realize that they should stop, as ben so delicately put, being a dick.
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Ben Train
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hehehe.
It's a damn hard one. What WOULD I do?
To be honest, I'm not sure. Magic isn't static, and my answer is dependent on the situation.
My first response is to ignore it... but there's more. I then have to address the issue and disprove it. For instance, if it's during an ambitious card then I'll ignore and cause the card to rise (leaving me with a single). I'll turn over the card LIKE IT WAS A DOUBLE- exaggerating the action to prompt a response. When it comes I would show it was a single, then cause it to rise again (Check out David Ben's handling of the ambitious card for the best work on the subject since Vernon's in Stars of Magic).
If it wasn't something I could ignore (such as in the situation I presented) then I don't know what to do. My answer at the time, and my favorite so far, is this.
I turn to the "dick" and tell him
"I'll show you whats beneath the card... for $100".
Then I would pause and wait. If he doesn't say shit for a few seconds, place the card in the center and cause it to rise (a single is now on top).
Again, turn to him and say,
"You wanna see what's beneath the card? Only $50..."
And so on.
This accomplishes several things.
1) You address the heckler's comments, don't let him win, but also don't give him any power.
2) You don't put yourself in a bad position. If he says sure, ask for the cash. If he begins to whine, continue with the effect and then presented the offer again. If he DOES pull out the money, you just got $100 for a double lift. Caching.
3) It's mildly amusing without being rude.
4) It allows you the opportunity to move on, not hurt the rhythm of the show, and counter any solutions.
Anywho, I shared this because it ISN'T great, but it's the best I got. Who's got something better, or sees any problems I've missed?
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Michael Kras
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Ignoring the spectator was one of the first things I thought of but skipped right past it because I was sure there was a better answer. Damn my out-of-the-box thinking!
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Ben Train
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No- ignoring is BAD.
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Michael Kras
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But ignoring mixed with indirectly disproving their "announcement" is the way to go, correct?
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Liam
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i think the best way is to get REALLY good at double lifts so you dont get called on it.
but when you do get caught.... danm this is tough
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Michael Kras
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Or perhaps, in lieu of Ben's bet remark, "If I show you what's under the card, will you show me what's under your clothes?" 
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